Franklin “Frank” Ramos has written over 20 books, 400 articles and spent many years providing invaluable advice to lawyers around the country. In this episode Frank discusses some of the challenges facing young lawyers such as mental health challenges, work-life balance issues, lack of mentorship from experienced lawyers, and expectations that lawyers of color may face.
Frank also gives us a glimpse into the future of law, especially as it pertains to technology. He gives advice on what to expect as law becomes more automated and impacted by remote work and how to ensure that you become a well-rounded lawyer and professional overall.
Timestamps:
Quote:
“We've all been through this process before, if you're a lawyer, and really any professional, you start a new career and you're wondering if you're doing it properly. You're wondering what your long-term prognosis is going to be in terms of what you want to do, how you want to get there, and what your goals maybe.”
Clarke Silverglate
Website: https://www.cspalaw.com/
Frank Ramos, Clarke Silverglate Managing Partner
Frank is the Managing Partner of Clarke Silverglate, where he practices in the areas of commercial litigation, drug and medical device, products liability and catastrophic personal injury. He is AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell and is listed in Best Lawyers in America for his defense work in product liability matters. Frank has been with Clarke Silverglate for virtually his entire career. He has tried to verdict personal injury, medical malpractice, product liability, and inverse condemnation cases. As a certified mediator, Frank has resolved numerous matters through alternative dispute resolution.
Frank is an ambassador for the Firm’s mission of leadership and service. He has been President of the Florida Defense Lawyers Association and the 11th Judicial Historical Society and has served on the boards of the Federation of Defense & Corporate Counsel, Defense Research Institute, Florida International University’s Alumni Association, Florida International University’s Honors College, Parent to Parent of Miami, Miami-Dade Defense Bar Association, Legal Services of Greater Miami, and Florida Christian School. He serves as a mentor to countless young lawyers and law students through his publications, social media posts, presentations, webinars, and his “coffee chats.” Frank has written 20 books for lawyers, edited five books for lawyers, and has written over 400 articles for lawyers and business professionals.
Frank’s dedication to young lawyers is exemplified through his development of a Deposition Boot Camp and Art of Marketing Program for the Federation of Defense & Corporate Counsel, an invitation-only defense organization that handpicked Frank for membership just eight years into his practice. Frank’s daily practice pointers and business tips on LinkedIn has over 55,000 followers and 5,000 friends on Facebook.
In his spare time, Frank enjoys writing, reading science fiction, and listening to his two sons, David and Michael, perform classical and jazz music.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/miamimentor/
Website: https://www.MiamiMentor.com
Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at feedback@1958lawyer.com
Episode Transcription:
Voiceover 0:01
So you're a lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999 It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Vox dollar and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 lawyer podcast.
Ron Bockstahler 0:30
Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. I'm your co host Ron Bockstahler.
Kirsten Mayfield 0:33
And I'm Kirsten Mayfield and we have with us today Frank Ramos Jr. He's a partner at Clark Silverglate in Miami, Florida, where he practices in the areas of commercial litigation, catastrophic personal injury, medical malpractice and product liability. But how I know Frank and how you probably know Frank is from his short and insightful LinkedIn posts. He's got 58,000 plus followers on LinkedIn. He talks about everything from practicing law and running a law firm to really just being a human being and a leader. He's written 15 books for lawyers, edited five, and they spam topics just like his LinkedIn posts from the very practical like his SL do strategic planning manual, which he co authored with john C. Trimble to the more personal like his book, Confessions of a Latino lawyer, and thank you so much for being with us today. Frank,
Frank Ramos 1:19
thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Kirsten Mayfield 1:21
Yeah, you're also into jazz, as we discussed, you've got some amazing art on the back of your wall. So in Oak Park, where I live, we usually have this awesome springtime festival. It's called jazz. Nah, we couldn't have it this year. So do you have a recommendation for a record or artist, my husband and I should check out?
Frank Ramos 1:42
Well, you know, I listened to a lot of the old classical stuff, people can't watch us. But I have a record player to my right. And I have a bunch of old jazz albums. And I have, you know, some of the classes like Frank Sinatra, and I have Miles Davis and a bunch of these others. The End are some art you mentioned, that's right behind me, one of which is a picture of IRA Sullivan, who's right behind me who is actually a big Chicago jazz artist. And every year he would celebrate his birthday in Chicago, he passed away last year due to complications of cancer at 87. He was actually a member of our church, and played with both our boys who both play jazz and other types of music. But I'm a big believer in sort of the Bebop 1950s era that is so much going through a bit of a renaissance now. So yes, it is.
Kirsten Mayfield 2:32
All right, great, I'm going to put links in that show notes as well to that. So people can check them out to not just me, and I appreciate it. Because I left the JASTA really sad to not have it this year, I can just talk your ear off about jazz, but into the law and the legal industry and everything. And let's start super easy. What brought you to start posting on LinkedIn, and building this network that you're building.
Frank Ramos 3:00
You know, I've been on LinkedIn for a number of years, I think it got on around 2008 or nine when it was very much sort of a place where you share your resume and you did little else on the platform. And I didn't really understand the platform at the time. I know people were trying to connect on it trying to talk about their careers and their jobs and what they did. And I didn't really understand at the time, and I revisited the platform a few times until around 2016 when I just wrote a book called, he says it's handbook. It's a free book. And I was trying to promote and I thought, oh, LinkedIn are a good place. I mean, a lot of good lawyers are there. And let me try to share some of my thoughts from that book on that platform. And so I would just take little excerpts and share it. And then at some point early on, in that process around, I won't say August 2016, I decided I was going to post daily. And I committed myself to doing that. I've been doing that ever since I've posted every day, maybe with the exception or once or twice in those four or almost five years, and develop a bit of a following along the way. And my post is you're probably familiar with a very general, they're very much geared toward younger lawyers, I have two sons are 22 and 19. Neither of them are in law. They're both into music that kind of uses away because they both follow me there's a way to kind of give them nice fatherly advice. And a lot of times dads realize that their kids won't always listen to them. But sometimes you'll have other people comment in your posts. That's a really good idea. And then your son's like, Oh, well somebody else thinks is a good idea that my dad was actually had something to say to me. So a lot of my posts are basically like me talking to my son's barn, anybody else. So that's a lot of what I do on that forum. And early on in my practice. I've been practicing since 1997. Graduated from your son Manny. And around 2000 2001 I had a real bad case of imposter syndrome. I didn't think I was particularly good at what I was doing. I didn't think that's particularly effective. And I took it upon myself to start writing I started basically reducing what I thought I knew about the practice into small articles or sort of how to articles and And I've been doing that ever since on and off in some periods of my career where I haven't done much writing at all. But I want to say in the last five years or so, I've been writing a lot. And most of my books, if not all of them are pretty much how to books. They're how to take a deposition, how to try a case, how to market your practice, how to do public speaking, so on so forth. And whenever I do that, the book first and foremost is really for me, it's really for me to understand how to do that type of activity. You know, if I really want to know how to take a deposition, I started a deposition bootcamp is yes, I want to teach and lawyers but I really want to learn not only the practice from sitting down and thinking through it, but you know, talking to other lawyers did it as well. And so the process for me is really a selfish one primarily at first, and then it's an opportunity for me to then share with others what I learned through that process. And a lot of young lawyers don't have a lot of mentors, they don't have people who they can listen to or talk to, and a lot of firms don't have the resources or the time the partners are busy billion hours, and they don't really want to spend time with your lawyers. And it's very stressful. And a lot of young lawyers don't know what to say or do or how to interact or how to respond to a given situation. So I tried to, and my writing this want to give them sort of, you know, tell them to keep their chins up, and things are gonna be okay. And no matter what you do, there's ways of addressing and resolving those issues, and then also try to provide them real, practical advice. Having now done this for over five years, now, you kind of run out of things, the practical stuff to say, and a lot of that stuff is my books. So I've kind of really moved beyond that. I'll still do some of that, but a lot more of it, it's just, you know, you're gonna be okay, you know, even when it's not okay, it's gonna be okay. type of postings and, and if you want to learn, I think a Depo, almost all my books are free, go to my website, Manny, mentor, calm and find it there and look for my materials there. But I'm really trying to lend any engineer and if done, lawyers won't call me or email me, I'll usually set up a time to talk to them, usually in the evenings or the weekends when I'm not in middle of something, in a case for emotion or demo. And I found that everybody pretty much has the same question. Everybody has the same worries and concerns and fears. And that within 15 minutes, I'm I don't know, if I can solve all your problems, I can help you figure out how to address them. They're all pretty much in the same boat. We've all been through this process before, if you're a lawyer, and really any professional, I mean, you start a new career, you're wondering if you're doing it properly, you're wondering what your long term prognosis is gonna be in terms what you want to do, and how you want to get there and what your goals may be. And I think a lot of people just need someone to say, you know, look, you know, what do you want to be in 510 15 years? What are the long term larger goals? You know, what do you think you need to do to get here from here to there. Now, these are some suggestions, but you know, these certainly is not the whole number of suggestions and, and you can pursue it however you want to pursue it. And then most people, once they have an end in mind and have a pathway to get there, then they can figure it out. And so that's kind of what I've been doing on that platform for I guess, now for five years. And it's grown into quite a large tribe I get to interact with on a daily basis.
Kirsten Mayfield 8:12
So you're a partner at your firm. Do you have like that sort of like leadership and role in your firm to how big is your firm?
Frank Ramos 8:21
We're a small firm, there's like eight or nine of us. And you know, we've had different lawyers coming through our firm over the years. And and yeah, I think a mentoring role too. So you enter the Lord come here, and I'll sit down with them and kind of talk through whatever issues they may have, whether they're handling my cases or another attorneys cases. And you know, when people don't appreciate from the practice law is that yes, there is a certain skill set you need, and there's a certain craft to it. But there's very much a process to it. And, and what I try to do is I take every activity and I break it down into almost like a flowchart. Like, you know, these are the steps you need to follow the different A to B to C. And that should get you 90% of the way there. The other 10% is the experience and skill set and, and sort of the imagination, but a lot of what we do, I don't say it's rote, but it does have a certain process involved. And I've spent a lot of time studying what that process is I have a book, just the book of checklists. That's the one book I actually sell. It's for the ABA and it's basically every activity you do as a lawyer, whether it's an intake or talking to a witness, or taking a deposition or trying a case or even leading your firm or hiring somebody or doing an interview, basically just a list of checklists, and it goes through steps A through Z on how I do it and how I do it may not be how everybody else does it, but at least it provides a roadmap on how to achieve and I think that's true for anything we do in the practice pretty much in any career.
Ron Bockstahler 9:54
Break take us back to you mentioned imposter syndrome. Is this self diagnosed
Frank Ramos 10:00
It is something that's
Ron Bockstahler 10:01
huge. I think a lot of us have that. And I've never actually put a title to it. But I'm thinking even of myself going, and what do I actually know? What can I do for anyone what you know? And it sounds like you took that and said, Okay, I'm going to get better at it. And you know, the old adage is the teacher makes the greatest student is what comes to mind, as I was listening to, you
Frank Ramos 10:19
know, it's very point, I think each of us struggles with it at some point, especially early on in our careers. And we need some sort of ratification that we actually know what we're doing. And I did it through writing, not so much to show people I could write, but just so that I can reduce to writing what I already knew, and the process, get better at it. Because you know, you sit down, and let's say you want to argue a hearing, and say, Well, I know how do I prepare for hearing in front of a state court judge, let me these are the eight steps to come to mind. There's three more, let me think there's a little bit more, let me add those steps. Let me talk to some other people who go to hearings and get their input and suddenly have 14 steps. And now it's like, Okay, this is the 14 steps, I follow these 14 steps, I'm 90% of the way home. And that was kind of what I did. I've been doing that since 2001. And the last years I've been doing it, I've moved away from articles and done it in the form of books. But that's what I do. And I think that's pretty applicable to any career. And here, if you're in position or position or an accountant, you know, there's a process everything we do, not to sort of knock out or eliminate the creativity from it. But it really helps have that checklist I like when pilots get on, before they fly, they always go through their checklist to make sure that things will fall in sky. And it's no different for any one of us.
Ron Bockstahler 11:36
So give us some ideas so that you were talking confidence, we got a lot of young attorneys that are you know, no one wants to admit it. But I think struggling with their confidence to make you know, can I do this, know what some advice you can give them or you've given to you know, if you don't want to write a book, here's other ways you can build your confidence level so that you can you know, fulfill your abilities as an attorney.
Frank Ramos 11:55
No, I think public speaking is really important. And there are different ways of approaching it. Obviously, we're still in the pandemic, you really can't go out and speak that much. But there are opportunities to do it through zoom and other platforms. You know, when things return to normal, or at least the new normal, I strongly recommend that people join the local Toastmasters, it's very inexpensive things like 75 or $80 a year for membership. And it is a great way to develop and work on your public speaking, I strongly recommend people do improvisation, I took a couple improv classes a number of years ago, you know, comedy improv, and to stand in front of an audience and improvise something funny. I mean, that takes a lot of mental bandwidth. And it provided and it really gets over your nerves, I think so much of yarn lawyers that they're afraid of, you know, they're gonna say something dumb or stupid, or react to runaway? And how do I get in front of a judge or a jury or interact with a client. And so you kind of have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions repeatedly over a long period of time. And eventually you overcome that. I mean, there's a point where I was just scared to death of public speaking, just getting in front of an audience and even introducing myself would give me close to beating heart attack. But now, it's, I find it kind of, you know, very comfortable. And if anything I try, I try to prepare as little as possible, I try to improvise as much. And I find that more enjoyable, I don't really enjoy having the PowerPoint and kind of ticking through the PowerPoint. And, you know, give me a topic, give me, you know, let me know how long I need to go. And I got this. And I went from being a point where I was completely frightened of my own shadow in front of an audience to a point where you put me in front of a large crowd, like two seconds before and tell me what to talk about. I'll talk about it. And I'm not unique in that way that anybody can go through that process. So for people who are going through imposter syndrome, you know, figure figure out what skill sets you really need to develop public speaking, writing, client relations, you know, confidence, obviously, is a big issue, you're having a certain gravitas only in the room and find opportunities that really may not be in the in the legal field, but opportunities where you develop that skill set, so that when you're interacting with a client or dealing with opposing counsel, they realize that they're doing some of that substance, like you're not going to be just pushed over by them.
Ron Bockstahler 14:07
Right, correct. And we should have talked to Frank, early on, when we started doing shows our first shows were scripted, it was the worst show you could ever imagine. And now they've gotten much better now, obviously. But yeah, taking us back on nervous we were writing everything down and having notes and wow, you just hit hit hit the nail on the head there, Frank.
Frank Ramos 14:25
Yeah, I was doing a podcast for a while we did like about 100 episodes. It's not on anymore. Although you can listen to the old episodes. It's a conversation with the Defense Research Institute. And I didn't even a lot of times, I didn't really study the guests per se, I would just like my, I would do the standard intro our younger sons music was the music that would play me in and then I would tell them all, you know, in 30 seconds, tell me a little about yourself. And that was really the first time I would hear about them and make a point not to really learn about them. And then we'd spend a half hour talking, and then that was it, and then we'd shut it down and then you know, the music can play us out and that would be the end of the conversation, and people would just go crazy. Laura was like, why I need to know what questions you're asking me like, I do not know what questions I'm going to be asking you, we're going to have a conversation very much like, if I read it to you, at a cocktail party, we're going to just have a conversation. Because if I have to actually think about what I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna bore myself to death. And, and it's not going to be very pleasant, you know, I know how to have a conversation, I said, you know how to have a conversation, let's just have a conversation. And that's kind of how those those went. So I think there's something about just being in the moment, and just being able to do that. And that takes time and practice, obviously, I'm sure my first few interviews probably weren't that great. But, you know, by the time we get to 50, or 60, it's kind of second, nature becomes a bit rude. And I think that's true forgotten lawyers, you know, that first hearing you argue that first deposition, you take, that first client interactions can be rough. And it just it is what it is, you know, it's like, I've written over 400 articles, but first 100 articles, price sucks, you know, there's just no getting away from that. You know, I don't even keep them I've got I don't keep my old articles, I would, I would hate to even read them at this point. But it's a process, you have to go through the process, you have to suck at first, if the suck for sometimes a very long time. And then eventually you get good at it, and the passions that drive you forward. And at some point, you have to do something that you really enjoy and you love. And you have to make this a distinguishing factor between is it is fear, hold me back, or am I just not good at this, if you're not really good at that, maybe you're not, you shouldn't be pursuing it. But if it's the fear factor, then you really owe it to yourself to try to get past that fear factor. Because now again, I speak all the time, it's out to let fear get the best of me, I wouldn't be speaking at all. And but if but if I gotten past the fear and realize, well, I'm not really that good at this, then it's like, Alright, well, now I'll do something else.
Ron Bockstahler 16:45
Let's be a good person,
Kirsten Mayfield 16:47
I was just gonna say it kind of felt like you hit the nail on the head earlier, when you said like attorneys, they want to know the questions. It's an area where people are used to being prepared and preparing. So I feel like the hill decline with the attorney community is probably a lot steeper than, say, your artistic sons reading your LinkedIn posts.
Frank Ramos 17:09
It is it's, it's a little odd, because what I'm doing is kind of unusual. I'm kind of the Tony Robbins of lawyers basically, on LinkedIn, that really wasn't what I wanted to do that really wasn't like, I came up one morning and said, Oh, I'm going to be you know, Les Brown for lawyers, you know, that just wasn't my idea. But it kind of worked out that way. And I'll get a lot of times I'll get calls and emails from people I've never even spoken or discussed anything with, and they're very grateful for what I've posted. And you know, it's, it's, it's reassuring, it's nice, but I don't really do it for that way. You know, there's, there's, if I can get somebody to if somebody is in a bad situation, either emotionally or at work or something, and they read something that I said, that helps them, but I feel I accomplished something. And if I never hear from them, that's fine. I'm not really looking to get them to affirm what I'm doing. Because often what we say what we do has certain ripples effects that we don't even appreciate. And maybe years down the road, we hear like so and so say, Oh, you know, you wrote something, or you said something for your podcast, they know, you know, I heard your podcast and such and such topic that really altered the trajectory of my career, my life. And I'm sure it's part of the reason why you guys do this. You know, we all work, we all pay the bills, we all have to put in the time. But if that's all we did, it'd be kind of a very menial existence and not being able to transcend that and say and do something that goes above and beyond that, you know, that's kind of nuts. That's what I'm trying to do. And I think that's what we all try to do and try to achieve.
Ron Bockstahler 18:39
Right? You have a unique perspective, as an attorney, what are some of your passions? What are the things that really excite you,
Frank Ramos 18:46
you know, I love to write, I'm actually working on a novel now. It's, the reason I'm laughing is that whenever you write a novel, you try to find a genre that's going to fit into it, if it's if it's a brand new genre that you created, you're not going to find anybody to pick it up. And I'm writing a legal thriller slash science fiction novel. And there are actually a few people in that space, but they're very few. And there really isn't much of a demand for that type of book, but I'm doing it anyway. But I really enjoy it. It's it's set some time future. It's basically a time where lawyers are being pushed out and trying to be replaced with androids. And the protagonist has been asked by a corporate client to be set to have his trial second, chaired by a new Android and he kind of to go through with it and, and there's just a big backstory to it and everything else. And the thing was science fiction is that it really kind of talks about who we are as people and where we're going and talks about much larger issues about you know, what's man and what's humanity and, you know, what makes us different than our creators and, and so on, so forth. So, I like big ideas. You know, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you can get that sense. And I love talking to people who like big ideas, and if I get in a room with people and we're we're Talking about some you know about the future, the practice or about, you know, the future of work, you know, that's that's a remote want to be in
Ron Bockstahler 20:08
there that kind of ties right into I mean, maybe it's not that much science fiction anymore with artificial intelligence replacing your Android and in the concept things are changing, you know, what's the future of law look like?
Frank Ramos 20:20
That's a great question. I do think that more and more of what we do is gonna be picked up by AI. And I think the first step you'll see is a lot of people outsourcing work to other countries like India and elsewhere, where the hourly rate is much less, and they have very high standards reputation. And that's been the scene now where legal assistants, even paralegals are from India, or from the east or from Latin America. And they're paying them a fraction of what they would pay an American employee. And I think the next step is like, Well, why do we have to pay anybody at all? Can't we just get some artificial intelligence to draft this contract or interact with this line or draft this motion? You know, you see, startups where you tell them an idea for motion, and they're trying to figure out how to draft the motion for you? And are we gonna get the point where we are having, you know, trials being done by androids? Maybe I don't know, like, you know, the idea of that we 20 years ago, sounded preposterous, and now, it doesn't. Now, it seems like, you know, it's within our grasp. And and where does that leave humanity? You know, are we gonna be in a post work world where 90% of the jobs are done by machines? And we have nothing to do? And, you know, and how do we support ourselves? And how does society support itself. And so I think the law has somehow managed to sort of push that off. But I think due to COVID, and other things, for all realize, and technology is very much part of what we do. And part of our practice our clients realizing that a lot of stuff we thought we had to do in person we can do remotely. And I think the step after that, or maybe two steps further down the road is, well, do we really need to at all do or at least do we need you for many of the tasks we thought we need before? You know, is there a Legal Zoom? Where we can just basically type stuff up and print out, you know, going beyond just a simple will or simple incorporation? You know, can can we draft a contract from whole cloth without you? And there are people out there trying to figure that out? They're trying to be there, there's a whole industry trying to make this obsolete? And, you know, more power to you know, yeah, that's, that's not really my debate, per se, it is what it is. And I think lawyers for so much, so long have been fine. get in the way of technology, and technology is coming whether you want to or not. And you have to figure out where you fit in, as opposed to trying to prevent it from happening. Yeah.
Ron Bockstahler 22:47
How can you work alongside technology, I think is where you need to be thinking.
Frank Ramos 22:50
Yeah, absolutely.
Kirsten Mayfield 22:51
Yeah, I'm gonna take a more optimistic point of view on this, because I think and I hope that what will happen is it just frees up more time for attorneys to bring the actual change they want to in the world, they can focus on those things that they're passionate about, and maybe you know, impact the law. Because we've got robots doing the grunt work and the boring work, we can have more passionate and bright ideas take the center stage.
Frank Ramos 23:17
I agree with that.
Ron Bockstahler 23:18
I think you got to break this down even further to b2c and b2b. So if you're a family lawyer, I think that leads more towards the emotional side, where you're going to want to be with someone that can walk you through and keep you calm and in control. versus if you're an attorney, big attorney for Microsoft, it's going to be more AI is going to be taken over a lot, a lot of work to be done. So I think you got to look at what area you're practicing it. And then take it step by step as to how you can fit in and apply technology to assist your firm.
Unknown Speaker 23:49
But you
Kirsten Mayfield 23:50
can't apply technology without knowing your processes and procedures. So that's where you go pick up Frank's book, and then get your robots to do the checklist.
Frank Ramos 24:01
That's right. Now all comes together without appreciating I brought up the next next age.
Ron Bockstahler 24:06
Mm hmm. What's your history? So you got I think over 20 books you've written, you got one that really stands out as you love. That's what I really like.
Frank Ramos 24:15
Yeah, there's a book I wrote. And I forgot when I wrote it, to be honest, it was called grow, motivate yourself. Stop chasing grows and do the hard work. And the purpose of that book was that we get some people asking, how can you motivate making you inspire me? And I realized that people are asking the wrong question that if I have to motivate you, then I'm motivating you to do something you don't really want to do. And so if you figured out what you want to do, you don't need a whole lot of external motivation. That's going to be your internal motivation, pushing you forward to achieve those goals. And so the point of the book, which is directed to the lawyers, but really is for anyone is identifying where your talents and your passions and your dreams intersect, because you can find in that Venn diagram, draw three circles and draw a circle with your passions. One with your talents and one with your dreams. And find that sort of inner point of intersection. That's really where your purposes, you know, that's where you know, your mission is whatever word you want to use your destiny. But that's where you're supposed to be. I don't think it is a coincidence that any of us have a certain number of talents. And I think we're supposed to develop and grow those. And I don't think it's a coincidence that any of us have certain passions or have certain dreams, you know, you know, a lot of us have had them since early on. And people always ask you, oh, what do you want to do when you're a kid and you're moving beyond being a baseball star, movie star, you know, we had, you know, a lot of us wanted to be lawyers, or doctors or firefighters, whatever else. And there's something to be learned from all that. And so that book, which is a free book, and again, you can go to my new mentor, comm and download it, it basically kind of walks you through, helps you figure out, you know, who you are, if you figure that out, then you can kind of get to where you are. And I think it's a scary process, because a lot of people are, you know, 1015 years of their career, and they realize why I shouldn't have done this, I really should not have done this. And I think that book is frightening to some people, because they're gonna realize, wow, I need to make a U turn here. But it's better to make a U turn later in life than not to do it at all. And sometimes what you find is that, you know, maybe it's not ideal, but you can make the best of a bad situation, or maybe you know, you're not at the right firm, you're not pursuing the right area of law. Maybe you're not, you know, maybe a certain fears are getting in your way, as I mentioned earlier. So that's why I like that book, it really has nothing to do with how to take depositions pretty much you know, how to figure out what do you do with your life?
Ron Bockstahler 26:32
I think too many attorneys, they want to get into law, maybe early on there, it's holistic, and they want to help change lives, be at 72% of Americans can't afford legal representation. So then it comes down to money. Right? I think so many of us are maybe not intentionally driven, but at the end of the day, driven by finances that oftentimes can lead to negative consequences or, you know, bad decisions.
Unknown Speaker 26:56
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's
Ron Bockstahler 26:57
a great book. I think that one maybe even a week, Kirsten, you and I should pick up and, and read. Let's talk about the mental health issues that are plaguing the legal industry. And maybe that kind of ties into you know, go motivate yourself. How can we address them?
Frank Ramos 27:14
I think we have to do a better job acknowledging that they exist. I think we're still in our professional career, especially among litigators, where you're supposed to like, if you talk about mental health, you're seen as weak. And I think there's been a lot of progress made in those parts, you see a lot of states requiring mental health care now, or at least promoting mental health CLE. There's a big movement toward mindfulness, there's a big movement toward acknowledging different addictions and different issues. And whether it's alcoholism or drug abuse, or whatever it might be. people deal with depression, anxiety, and, and there's a much greater awareness. And if you go to most conferences, now you'll find that there is one or two presentations on those topics, there's hotlines to call there are forums where you can meet with other people. And I think we're moving in the right direction, I still think it's fairly slow and glacial. And I think a lot of firms don't want to deal with that for a variety of reasons. One, they don't want to get spent. They don't want to, to open up that can of worms, they don't want to acknowledge those issues, the some of them feels like if they address it, it's basically go into sort of a work life balance discussion, which means that their people want to work less. And that's what's really driving the depression and the anxiety and they don't want to like have their people work less hours. So it's a tough career to deal with those issues. And every year, year after year, lawyers have the highest suicide rate, the highest divorce rate, highest rates, depression, anxiety, highest rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, and it's really uncanny. I mean, you compare our professions, anyone else's. And we're like, really, at the top of all those lists consistently, year after year, decade after decade, nothing really has changed in that regard. And so I think one is awareness. I think, you know, we have to bring more awareness to the situation to firms, as take ownership of the situation, you know, where much or last year I think firms have their new job and diversity, especially with the you know, the recent trials are going on with the police and all that. But I don't think we've done the same when it comes to mental health, and I think more has to be done to address it.
Ron Bockstahler 29:12
You actually, I think you wrote about it in a blog talking about, you know, younger attorneys don't want to work, the long hours that maybe you know, someone that's been practicing law for a long time has been doing for and they're just, it's natural, right? So how are we addressing this with younger attorneys? are we holding them back? Or are they still gonna have the opportunities if they don't want they want to have a family and enjoy the life also,
Frank Ramos 29:32
I think a lot of it is firm driven. You have to find firms with the right culture. Some firms have it, some don't. And I'm not here to disparage any specific firms. But these days, there's so much transparency online, that your lawyers have access to information that I never had when I graduated, you know, 2324 years ago, and there are platforms there are chat rooms, there are message boards that you will find out most likely than not about any firm and what they're really about, and listen, you know, really listen to what people are saying. There are some sour grapes, there are some people who are probably exaggerating, or maybe, you know, left under bad circumstances, but do your due diligence, you know, really look at a firm, and be willing to ask the hard questions at an interview. Even if it means you don't get the job, you know, if a firm is not there at the jobs, judging the hard questions, find out for me want to work at, you know, I mean, so you have to figure out what you want to do where you want to be, obviously, it's a two way street, you know, the firm wants to hire you Bill hours and work hard, and so forth. And you're there to, you know, help the firm achieve their mission and their vision, their values, but you also have to be, first of all, you have to know what you want to do where you want to be. And be honest with yourself, it's more than just doing a job of paying the bills, you really have to have a sense of self, and then commit to yourself to pursue it. Now, some people don't have that opportunity, that privilege, you know, people have through loans have other things. And sometimes people take jobs that they really don't want to take because the market is what the market is. But if you do have choices, and you have several interviews, you have some opportunities, really try to figure out whether the opportunity lines up with where you want to be 510 years from now.
Ron Bockstahler 31:12
And it takes you back to that old adage negotiate from a position of power. So when you're out looking, make sure you're doing your research and talking to as many opportunities as you can.
Frank Ramos 31:21
Yeah, it's like very similar to buying a car. Like when I bought my first car, I mean, years ago, I just there just wasn't that much information out there. And now I can go to a car dealership and say, Look, this is what you paid for it. This is what I want for it. And there's no disputing it, because it's all there. Like I mean, people who sell cars these days must be pulling their hair. They're just like, I'm sure there's some people who don't do the due diligence. But now it's just so easy to do.
Ron Bockstahler 31:44
I think I was actually when I was on vacation. This past two weeks, I read an article about some states are looking to do away with the dealerships, the mandatory dealerships. And that kind of ties to that all the information to buy the cars right online, do I really need to go into a dealership and negotiate with a salesperson? I mean, Tesla, that was a big case with Tesla when they were banned from certain states. Now there's a couple other electrical manufacturing vehicle companies that are saying, Hey, we don't want to deal with the dealership. So will that change? Or will the law stop them from moving on? Right, great point. You wrote a book. I don't have it in front top my head, but it's about Latino lawyers, Confessions of a Latino lawyer. Talk to us a little bit about how we can make some more progress with, you know, Latinos, women, African Americans practicing in law.
Frank Ramos 32:36
No, I think diverse lawyers have a very unique story, that if you're not diverse, or you just don't know. And the point of that book is great, it's probably my shortest book, it's almost like a lot of work, really. But it basically kind of is a summary of my life, from the prison of being Latino, grumpy Chicago, which is where I grew up, and then moving down here to Miami, and going to high school, college and law school out here then practicing law. And my experience is very unique to Angel lawyers, but it's very common to other diverse lawyers. You know, I was the first one to, I was actually the second person to a college, my family first person to our last post, I didn't have that network, I grew up in sort of an inner city. And so I didn't go to great schools. I grew up in an extended family, most everybody spoke Spanish, and we're all working class. And so, you know, right now, you know, there's this idea, there's this notion, and it's common on both African American and Hispanic lawyers, that you're kind of like your car, like the family bank, you know, like, you're like the one or two professionals in the family, if anybody needs something financially, they call you first and and, you know, in a sense of obligation, you, you help them and so, you know, whereas if you're sort of second or third generation, Anglo, that's not even an issue. Like for us, it's like, yeah, you know, we have to help, you know, I think there's just like two years ago, where we had to, like help pay for two funerals, because they couldn't afford to pay the funeral. And so those those financial obligations and smillie obligations are very different. You know, it's not uncommon to get pulled over by police when I was growing up, because I was Hispanic and what is a Ramos doing in a nice neighborhood? Especially, you know, we tend to drive older beat up more cars. And so obviously, we're some sort of a threat. And so those experiences always color like anybody else. For example, you know, any any person we go through life know, the way we were raised, the friends we had, what we watch, we listen to those our color our experiences, but the point of my book was that you have to understand if you're gonna hire diverse lawyers to really understand their stories, each of us has a story and understand how that story influences them in their decision making. And if you can't meet them halfway and really try to understand their story, they're probably not gonna stick around. I think a lot of firms actually do a pretty good job hiring lawyers, they do a pretty bad job keeping them and I think a lot of that comes down to the fact Is that? Well, we know we hire give, you know, this is how we do things, and a lot lower like what's I mean, I don't really have a point of reference, I, you know, I don't know how to deal with clients or, you know, that was really where I came up with. And, and the angle lawyers like, you know, they have family members or lawyers and, you know, their fathers and mothers are lawyers, and they get it and refers like, I don't really get it. And that's less true now. Because, you know, it's like, you know, there's more second and third generation African American and standard lawyers, but it's still very much. You know, if you see a first generation lawyer, it's much more common among diverse populations, that it is an angle of populations. So if firms want to hire people and keep them, they have to understand them. And that's true for anybody be honest. I mean, that's true for any lawyer, if you want to keep your lawyers, your paralegals your staff, figure out what motivates them and help them achieve their personal goals, separate apart whatever goals they may have for your firm, and then stick around. I mean, chances are they're a stick around.
Ron Bockstahler 36:03
Great stuff. We'd like to finish off with one question, Frank, and that kind of comes down to what's the one thing you'd like to see changed in the business of law going forward?
Frank Ramos 36:13
You know, I think there has to be more time focused on mentoring and developing young lawyers. And I think it's become too ad hoc. And I really believe associate training, Garn Lord training isn't that complicated. It really isn't that complicated. And more time has been spent by voluntary bar associations by law firms, by senior partners by even Junior lawyers on training and lawyers. And not just the hard skills, but the soft skills and soft skills actually more important, you know, encouraging your own lawyers to get involved in organizations to take leadership positions, encouraging young lawyers to do Toastmasters or improv, bringing young lawyers to meetings with clients, you know, getting them in situations where they're uncomfortable and moving past that, you know, helping them make decisions. Because the faster they can do that, the faster they can go out there and interact with clients, clients can smell, desperation, appliance and smell, when you're insecure client and smell when you're not on top of your game. And that is learned that it comes from experience that comes from being in sort of these hard knocks situations and moving beyond them. And the faster you can get gun lawyers and those situations where they're uncomfortable and realizing that in the world when things don't go their way. And they've learned from it, and they've learned how to interact with people. I think that's really important. And I think we're kind of losing a generation of lawyers that are not being trained in those regards.
Ron Bockstahler 37:41
So I had to ask, the follow up question is, how do we do that in this remote world we're living in, especially if it continues.
Frank Ramos 37:48
You know, I think remotely, I think, more time as we spent having senior lawyers kind of think through, like how they learn what they did. And then kind of conveying that and figuring out new ways of training people, you know, if you need to speak obviously, not to speak in front of a big group, but there are hundreds of opportunities to speak in zoom rooms, and lead zoom conferences and have zoom podcasts like this. So, you know, get your gun bloggers out there, push them out, where they crash and burn, maybe at first Yeah. And they'll learn from it and move on. And it's I think there's this fear, like, I can't have my landlords out there, because it made me look like idiots. Yeah, they are. And you pilot like media too. And that's just the way it is, you know, just my first few presentations were horrible. And now, I like to think I'd do it much better. And I did it because each time I did it, I learned something from the process. And so you have to try to create opportunities for landlords to go out there and stub their toe and, you know, get knocked to the ground to the canvas a few times and they get up and they realize it's not the end of the world and you're gonna be fine. They're just be just fine.
Kirsten Mayfield 38:53
Yeah, I've never read a story about someone who reached success without saying I failed a ton before I got to that point. So it seems like it's a mandatory first step.
Unknown Speaker 39:04
Absolutely. Alright, so
Ron Bockstahler 39:06
we've been talking to Frank Ramos partner at Clark Silverglate. Real quick referrals. If you got clients that are going down to Miami or going down to Florida, something happens they can call Frank, they can reach out to you.
Frank Ramos 39:19
Absolutely, yeah. And if you want to learn more about me, my websites play the best place to learn more about me is Miami, mentor, calm, you can contact me through it. And if you're a lawyer, and you want to learn more about the practice, you know, you'd have my contact information we'd set up a call.
Ron Bockstahler 39:34
Right. Thanks so much for joining us today. It's been great. having you on the show and lots to learn. Definitely go check out Frank's website at Miami mentor calm and reach out to if you got any questions or if you got a potential referral form. Thanks for being on Frank.
Frank Ramos 39:48
Thanks for having me.
Unknown Speaker 39:49
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 39:52
Thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. If you liked the show, tell a friend and please subscribe rate and review us on Apple podcast. Just Google, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron person, or Amata go to a model offices.com. All the links are also available in show notes.